Takehiko Inoue×Kendo ／ 井上雄彦×剣道

Slam Dunk, Vagabond, and Real.
Takehiko Inoue has continued to produce one hit manga creation after another, popular in Japan, the country of manga, and throughout the world.Speaking as a former kendo practitioner himself, Inoue related his personal, professional, and martial arts experiences.In unaffected comments on various topics, Inoue gave an impression of closely following the very meaning of "original motivation."

『スラムダンク』『バガボンド』『リアル』 。
漫画の国・日本、そして世界へ、
次々と大ヒット作を生み出しつづける井上雄彦氏。
自身も剣道の経験者である彼が語る、剣道の記憶、仕事のこと、自身のこと。
飾らない言葉のあちこちに「初心」そのものの意味が宿っている気がした。

I've heard that your experiences include kendo.

井上さんは、剣道をやられていたと伺いました。

Yes, when I was in the third year of elementary school. I had moved to Kagoshima. Knowing that it was an area where kendo was popular, my older brother and I decided to join an after-school club. At the time, it wasn't really of my own volition. I think it was my Mom who told me to join, saying that it was cool. People told me that, at first, I was so awkward practicing kendo that I was laughed at. It seems that people thought I had no prospects at all in kendo. However, around Year 4 in school, I got the chance to enter a really insignificant match, and from then on things got more interesting for me. I remember really putting my heart into it in Year 5 and 6. I had a really intimidating teacher and kendo practice went on for hours. (laughs) If we slacked off even a little, he was furious with us and practice was extended longer. So I had to keep at it full force. Only when I felt like I was going to drop, would the coach grab me, to keep me from falling, and let me quit. It's a memory that is really powerful even now.

小学校3年生でしたかね。鹿児島に引っ越して、剣道がわりと盛んな土地だったと思うんですけど、そこで放課後にある剣道部に兄とふたりで入りました。その時は、ほぼ自分の意志ではなかったと思います。母親がかっこいいから入りなさいって感じで。最初の頃は、剣道をやっている僕の姿がすごくおかしかったようで、笑われてたって聞きました。このコはまったく見込みがないって見られてたみたいです。でも、4年生くらいから、小さな試合に一番みそっかすのほうで出られるようになって、だんだんおもしろくなってきて。5、6年生はすごく一生懸命やっていた記憶があります。すごい怖い先生がいて、かかり稽古がものすごく長くて（笑）。ちょっと手を緩めたりすると逆に長くなったり、ものすごい怒られるので、とにかく全力で、必死でやり続けていると、もうダメだ！って時にガシッと抱擁してくれて、終わりにしてくれるんですよ。それは、今でも強烈に覚えていますね。

Does your illustration for the 16th World Championships poster draw on memories from that period?

今大会の告知ポスターとなった下絵に描かれているのは、その頃の記憶ですか?

In a match, when you face your opponent, the moment you see his eyes peering back at you through the steel of his mask, you have a good idea of who's stronger. That sensation really sticks in my memory even now and was the first thing I wanted to draw close up. I also really remember how, even though I was just a kid, I had to stand bare foot on the cold floor, my feet freezing, during winter practice and other times. I remember the stillness in the martial arts room, and my feet remember the winter air. I thought it would be great to convey the nuance of those winter mornings in this illustration of "sonkyo" (kendo's crouching pose). Back in those days, there were some parts of the floor that were especially hard. I would step there and pain would shoot through my feet. (laughs)

試合で相手と向き合って、その面金から覗く相手の目を見た瞬間、どっちが強いか、なんとなくわかるものですよね。その感じは、今でもすごく記憶に残っていて、それをまず大きなアップで描こうと。それと、冬休みの練習とかで、こどもながらに「足冷てぇー！」って思っていたあの時の、道場の静けさとか、冬の空気とか、裸足で立った時の床の冷たさだったり、そういう足が覚えているものが結構あって。手前の蹲踞している絵には、そういう冬の朝の感じが出るといいなと思っていました。床が異様に固いところとか、昔ありましたよね？踏み込んだ時に、痛ぇー！ってなったりして（笑）。

Did you also draw on your kendo experiences for the theme and storyline in the manga Vagabond?

漫画「バガボンド」のテーマやストーリーにも、何か剣道の経験が活かされているのでしょうか。

Rather than from a distant viewpoint with similarly global aims and themes, I drew that manga more from the perspective of someone on the ground and in the action. Like being pulled along by someone in the shuffle, or following behind that character, or being on the same level as that character. So it's not like I am intentionally selecting themes. Especially in the case of Vagabond. On the other hand, with Slam Dunk, there is a single type of theme: victory, accented by charisma and strength. I think that I was aiming toward a single type of value. I started drawing Vagabond in my 30s, so my values were different then from what I drew in my 20s. Maybe at the beginning I thought that "strength" would become the theme, but I had a feeling that it would be a different definition of strength than what I had been working with for Slam Dunk. I think that I myself have transformed as I've gotten older.

俯瞰の目線で何か大きな狙いやテーマがあって描いているというよりは、もっと現場目線、登場人物目線で描いています。登場人物にひっぱられるというか、追いかけているというか、同じくらいの位置にいるというか。だから意図的にテーマを選んではいないんです。『バガボンド』に関しては、特にそうですね。逆に、『スラムダンク』は価値観がひとつなんですよ。“勝利”というものの、かっこよさとか強さとか。ひとつの価値に向かっていたと思うんです。『バガボンド』は30代で描きはじめているのですが、20代に描いたのとは価値観が違っていて。はじめた時からたぶん、「強さ」というものがテーマになるだろうと思ってはいたけど、『スラムダンク』の時に描いていた「強さ」の定義とは違うものになるだろうという予感もあったんですよね。年齢とともに自分の変化もあったと思いますけど。

What is your personal definition of strength?

では、井上さんのなかでの「強さ」の定義とは？

That's hard to say. It depends on the time and place. To give a rough idea, right now it is an image that incorporates a lot of things. It's not just winning convincingly without allowing the opponent any leverage. Of course, if the goal is to win, then that's a good definition. But what if the person opposite you is a child or a woman? Then the image of strength for me is one where I can have the ability to incorporate various different values.

難しいですね、それは…。その時々で違いますけど、ざっくり言うと、今だといろんなものを「含む」というイメージをもっています。相手に何もさせないでぱっと勝っちゃうような強さだけじゃなくて、もちろん相手を倒す目的であったらそれでもいいんですけど、たとえば相手がこどもや女性だったりした場合にも、いろんな価値を飲み込める、「含む」ことができるようなものをイメージしていますかね。

Do you have a certain "stance" for when you set to work on a drawing?

作品と一対一で向き合う時の「構え」みたいなものはありますか？

Well, I don't really think of it so grandly. (laughs) Pretty much whenever I set to work on anything, I tend to work under an illusion, as if the opponent is really huge and I have this massively tall obstacle I have to overcome. But if that's the case, I wouldn't start anything. When I look back on it later, I see that it wasn't really that massive of a time commitment and it wasn't an environment where I had to absolutely shut out everything else. In practice, the task is done in really small bits of time and comes together in some sort of complete form as part of an aggregate. So at the beginning I should set out thinking that the obstacle is more the size of Yakult. (laughs) I've come to think that this kind of process is the way I have to start. Though there are also times when I can't think that way. In the end, once I start to concentrate, I enjoy myself. After that point, even if I worry about my craft, I don't worry much because I'm in the right state and right frame of mind. The time up to that point is tough, so I have to think, "First, let's just get over something as big as Yakult." After that, things get rolling. So for me, in concrete terms, I just have to make my hands start moving. So that's why I say the process shouldn't be thought of as anything grand.

それは…あんまり大げさに考えない（笑）。やっぱり、何かはじめようとすると、どうしても大きな相手に向かおうとしてるかのように錯覚して、なんだかすごく高いものを跳ばなくちゃいけないって思いがちじゃないですか。でもそれだと何も始まらなくて。あとで振り返った時に、そんなに膨大な時間だったかとか、それだけに集中した環境だったかというと、意外とそんなことないわけで。実はすごい細切れの時間のなかでやっていたり、そういうことの集合体でなんらかの完成形ができていたりするので、何か始める時にはまず“ヤクルト”くらいの高さを跳ぶ（笑）。そういう始め方をすべきだと思うようになりました。まぁ、思えない時もありますけど。結局、集中しだしたら楽しくなるし、そこからの時間はものづくりに悩むとしても、もう心構えとか心の持ちようで悩んだり考えることがなくなる。そこまでの時間が難しかったりするので、とにかくヤクルトを跳べ、僕の場合はとにかく手を動かせっていう、具体的にはそういうことですけど、そこから何かが始まっていく。だから、大げさにとらえるなって言い聞かせています。

What stands out in your recent works is your brush drawings.

最近の作品では、筆で描かれているのが印象的ですが。

With a pen, I draw what I mean to draw. With a brush that's also often the case, but there's also the added appeal of the movement, or awkward movement, of the line itself. I want to incorporate that element into the manga. My initial motivation for starting to use a brush was my desire to put in illustrations that were not completed exactly as I intendedillustrations that were not overly proportionate with predetermined harmony. And also.....there were occasions when I just didn't have enough time and had to draw two illustrations in 30 minutes. (laughs) Aren't those the times when certain expressions come to life? At least that is one elegant way of describing it. In terms of space and volume, there are things that just cannot be achieved with pen. If I use a brush instead, there are certain things I can do, which makes the brush a good weapon of choice.

ペンというのは狙い通りに描くもので、筆というのは狙い通りに描くことも多いですけど、そのなかでも線そのものの動きだったり、乱れだったり、そういうものがおもしろかったりする。そういう要素を漫画の中に入れたくて。あまりにも絵的に予定調和というか、狙った通りにできてしまうものじゃないものを入れたいっていうのが、筆を使い始めた最初の動機だったんです。あとは…、ほんっとに時間がなくて、あと30分で2枚描かないといけない（笑）みたいな時、そういう時にしか生まれ得ない表現ってあるじゃないですか。まぁ、キレイに言えばですけどね。面積的にとか質量的にとか、ペンだったら絶対に成立しないところを、筆だったら成立する場合があるので、そういうところはいい武器だなと。

With respect to illustrating, are there times when you gravitate back toward your original motivations?

「描く」というなかで、初心に立ち返るというようなこともあるのでしょうか。

The thing that bothers me the most is becoming patterned and overly familiar with myself. I do have a sort of fundamental stance. I don't feel that I am especially aware of anything, but I don't consciously try to rely on my experiences. I do get requests to, "Bring out that element," or "Let's draw it like so," but I don't initiate that sort of approach myself. Which maybe makes me look like I'm acting or posturing (laughs), but it's just that I don't like that approach, so I try not to do it. And then there's the idea of "breaking" things. Taking everything up to this point and throwing it away or breaking it apart. It was a minor change, but I think switching to brush was this kind of shift. At first when I tried to draw just with brush, the quality of my pictures suffered. But as I got used to it, the result was greater range.

僕は自分に慣れるというか、自分自身に飽きちゃうのが、一番嫌で。そういう、自分の基本的な姿勢みたいなのがあるんですよね。だから、特別に何か意識はしていない気がしますけど、自分の経験を引き出しみたいにしておくことが、意識のうえではないです。「あれを持ち出して、あれ風にやろう」というのが。依頼ではありますけど、自分の中ではほぼ、ないですよね。そう言うと格好つけてるように聞こえるかもしれないけど（笑）、でも実際嫌なので、なるべくしないようにしています。あと「壊す」ってことですかね。今までやってきたことを、捨てるとか、壊すとか。マイナーチェンジですけど、筆に変えた時もそういうことだったと思います。最初、筆だけでやってみた時、下手になりましたもんね、絵が。でもやってるうちに慣れて、結果的には幅は広がったんです。

In Kendo, there's also the phrase "shu-ha-ri" (preserving, then breaking with tradition), isn't there?

剣道にも「守・破・離」という言葉がありますね。

Yes, it may be similar to that. Not that it's that significant or anything. But I think for me, the first part of that phrase "shu" (preserve) is deficient. Manga is not something you learn. You start out from the beginning without any kinds of forms. Without there being any specific model to preserve, you go to work in your own style, which gradually becomes your own set of forms. Since that is the way it's done, there are many gaps throughout. That thought occurs to me at many different times. It really occurred to me when I worked on the special Gaudi Exhibit and the sumi-e drawings for Ise Shrine. "I'm seriously deficient," I thought. Since I didn't study drawing, manga was really the only style I could do. Without forms to follow, the only recourse for me has been the path that I've taken up to now. In the end, I just have to go with what I have, right? Like with climbing Mt. Fuji, even though you can drive up to the 5th station by car, my approach feels like starting from zero every time. (laughs) Almost every time I go back to the beginning. I'm always a beginner.

似ているかもしれませんね。そんなにたいそうなものではないですが。でも、僕にはその「守」の部分が足りないんです。漫画って習うものじゃなくて、そもそも何か型があるわけじゃない。守るべきお手本がきっちりないところで、自分なりのやりかたでなんとなくやっていって、それがだんだん自分の型みたいになっていく。そういうやりかたなので、穴だらけなんですよね。それは、いろんな時に思います。ガウディの特別展とか伊勢神宮の「墨絵」の時にも、ものすごく思いました。足りねーなーって。僕は、絵を勉強してきたわけではないので、やっぱり漫画でいくしかなくて。型もなければ、寄って立つところが結局、今までの自分の道のりでしかない。最終的には自分自身としていくしかないんですね。富士山に登るのに、5合目まではクルマで行けばいいじゃんっていうところを、毎回１から歩いていく感じですからね（笑）。ほぼ毎回、初心。ずっと素人ですよ。

What about kendo makes you glad that you practiced it?

井上さんが剣道をやっていてよかったと思うことは？

Not that I claim to still have these qualities now, but I think that learning politeness, formality, and respect for the kendo equipment were important. In kendo, you're not allowed to step over your bamboo sword and protective gear when they are placed on the floor. It might not seem like such a big deal, but I think it's really significant. To exaggerate it a bit, you have to pay respect to your equipment and pay respect to your opponent. While doing it, you don't notice anything particular, but once you become an adult, there are fewer chances to develop that kind of behavior. When I happen to suddenly notice someone who has those qualities, I think of how they must have learned it when they were young, and it makes me remember learning it myself when I did kendo. I think it's really a good thing that I practiced it, as well as learning how to face off one-on-one with an opponent and compete in actual matches. It's amazing to face off with an opponent, locking sword to sword at such close distance. It's an experience that you can't get otherwise. And I think it's something people should absolutely try.

今できているかどうかは別として、礼儀を教わったことだったり、道具を大事にするってことだったり。剣道って竹刀や防具をまたがないですよね。そういう小さなことなんですけど、ずいぶん違うと思います。大げさに言えば道具に対する敬意、相手に対する敬意というか。やっている時はことさらに意識しないかもしれないけど、大人になるとそういうことを正される機会って減っていくじゃないですか。ふとした時に、そういうことがきちんとできている人を見ると、そうだったなと気づくことができるのは、小さい頃教わったからだと思うんです。それはすごくよかったと思っています。あとは、一対一で相手と向き合って、実際に闘うということ。つばぜり合いとかで、あれだけの距離で相手と向き合うのなんて、すごいですよ。他ではなかなかできない体験ですからね。これは絶対にやっておいたほうがいいと思う。

Situations like you experience during kendo are definitely not ones you run into in today's modern society.

たしかに、剣道のようなシチュエーションは、現代社会ではあり得ない状況ですよね。

That's right! As animals, our first instinct should be to run away when faced with a one-on-one confrontation like that. (laughs) But instead, in kendo, you face off, and do so at close range. The relationship between the two bodies is extraordinary during a one-on-one confrontation. So there is a tremendous amount to learn. And kendo is pretty much the only competition that can be done by opponents with significant age differences. Which is why I think there should be more immediate opportunities for people to know what kendo is all about. I think there are probably few chances for people to get a real look at kendo. Seeing it in person is the most important. Without doing so, there's really nothing to talk about. Whether it's a video of a match or a live match, there are still a lot of people who haven't experienced that ambiance. Kendo will certainly lead one to other things. So I think it would be good for kids these days to have more chances for close-up experiences with kendo, maybe from an older kid who is learning it, or from some other exposure. After all, Japan is where kendo started. Yet Japanese people don't get to see kendo much, which is kind of a shame.

そうですよ！生き物として本来はね、そんなふうに一対一で向き合ったら、まずは逃げることを考えるべきですよ（笑）。なのにあの近さで、しかも正対。正対して向き合った時の体の関係って、かなり強烈。だから、学べることはすごく大きいですよね。それに年齢差が大きくあってもできる競技としても、剣道くらい。だから、剣道ってこういうもんだっていうのを知る場が、もっと身近にいっぱいあるといいですよね。たぶん剣道って絶対的に観る機会が少ないと思います。実際に観るのが一番いいし、観ないことには話にならないと思うんですよね。試合の映像とかでも、もちろん実際にでも、あの空気感を経験したことのない人のほうが多いかもしれない。剣道ってきっと、つないでいくものだから、ちょっと身近なところに、ちょっと年上のコが誰か習っているとかで、今のこどもたちにももっとその機会が増えていくといいですよね。少なくとも、発祥の国ですからね。それなのに日本人があんまり観たことないっていうのは、ちょっと残念ですよね。

Will you be able to come see our 2015 World Championships?

2015年の世界大会は、観にきていただけますか？

I want to! As someone who did kendo as a kid, and after talking about this poster, a lot of memories have come flooding back. I really feel like doing kendo again. The World Championships are a whole different universe, but I would like to see them as one example of the highest level of excellence. Just as a pure spectator, I'd really like to be able to experience it. And also in Japan, it would be great if more and more people practiced and watched kendo. Also, I feel like "kendo should be kendo, remaining just as it is."

観たいですね！こどもの頃剣道をやっていた人間としては、このポスターのお話をいただいてから、本当にいろんな記憶がよみがえってきていて、また剣道をやりたいなって気持ちが湧いてきています。世界大会は、自分とはまったく違う世界だと思うんですけど、最高峰のひとつとして、観てみたい。純粋に観客として、観てみたいって気持ちが強いですね。それに、日本でも、もっともっと剣道をやる人、観る人が増えていくといいと思います。それと、「剣道は、剣道のままであってほしい」って、僕はそう思いますね。